Talk:Chara/@comment-36073590-20180704133156/@comment-33883848-20180801182749
Manipulating someone is natural result of having influence over that person. It really doesn't matter which term is being used since both give the same result." Sorry Sherlock but : "Psychological manipulation is a type of social influence that aims to change the behavior or perception of others through abusive, deceptive, or underhanded tactics.1 By advancing the interests of the manipulator, often at another's expense, such methods could be considered exploitative, abusive, devious, and deceptive."-wikipedia Manupulation is A TYPE of social influence(so a not every social influence is manipulation) , which requires specific abusive and deceptive methods "According to psychology author George K. Simon, successful psychological manipulation primarily involves the manipulator:2 -Concealing aggressive intentions and behaviors. -Knowing the psychological vulnerabilities of the victim to determine which tactics are likely to be the most effective. -Having a sufficient level of ruthlessness to have no qualms about causing harm to the victim if necessary"-Wikipedia I already showed the lack of those methods on Chara and Asriel on previous posts so i dont want to repeat myself again and again. All others methods of influence is social influence: "Social influence is not necessarily negative. For example, people such as friends, family and doctors, can try to persuade to change clearly unhelpful habits and behaviors . Social influence is generally perceived to be harmless when it respects the right of the influenced to accept or reject it, and is not unduly coercive. Depending on the context and motivations, social influence may constitute underhanded manipulation." Chara gave him the right to choose or not to agree the plan as they used persuasion "Yeah!! we'll be strong!! we'll everyone!! ", "OUR plan is failled right? " and didn't hide their real motives as they didn't have ones Source:(Source) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation So check the definition before sending your own assumptions. Theres a long time i study manipulation and its goals for a long time already so i know about what i talking "4. Authority - People will tend to obey authority figures, even if they are asked to perform objectionable acts - wikipedia. It is there, really can't you see it? Also, for clarity: idol, authority, friend are different descriptions for the same, a person that has influence on others. It doesn't matter which one I choose since effect is still the same - having the influence and manipulating in good or bad way. So, here is my source. I'm surprised you didn't get it." 1.Asriel agreed to the plan when chara was already dead"Chara wake up i dont like this plan anymore, no i said ill never to doubt of you"as Toriel and Asgore tried to wake up them before this line then its appears like Chara didnt ask if he doubt or not of them but that Asriel talk with a dead Chara here. I said it again again but you DELIBERATELY ignored it 2.your source say its an influence not manipulation,its what we call social influence, an authority parents can have over their children. "The fact is the monsterkind doesn't need freeing, especially when it costs someone's life, reasons to do it are very questionable and overall outcome is actually harmful. our plan is failed rifht? - I reject this due to its ambiguity - it can be interpreted as the plan they both created as well as the plan they both just tried to accomplish. Hence, it wont work as proper evidence and cannot be used as argument." Please stop with the wikia's quotes i know fully this game. Then how do you know the monsters doesnt wanted to be free? Werent they filled with hope when Asgore said he will free them? Plus since Chara was seen as the future of humans and monsters they might thought giving them freedom its their goal. And I already showed with control's split issues that they couldn't thought of a plan where they would destroy humanity. Plus again the "our plan is failled"confirms that the failled plan belonged to both of them and not only to chara, this plan was to free the monsters "Definition does work, you just don't understand it. The main job of manipulation/having influence on someone is to "force" them to do things they don't want to do or have doubts about by convincing them to willingly do those doubtful things. Therefore, it only looks like Asriel by his own will agreed to Chara's plan, when in fact he has been manipulated: I... I don't like this idea, Chara. Wh.. what? N-no, I'm not... ... big kids don't cry. Yeah, you're right. No! I'd never doubt you, Chara. Never! Y... yeah! We'll be strong! We'll free everyone. I'll go get the flowers - People will tend to obey authority figures, even if they are asked to perform objectionable acts." WILL YOU FOREVER IGNORE : "Chara please wake up I dont like this plan ANYMORE, no I said i"'ll never doubt of you"? When Chara was dead, Asriel used his will to not doubt of Chara as a way to follow the plan. He wasn't manipulated but he agreed to the plan at his own (at least the final choice was completely deliberately made by Asriel) Chara also said they had no control over his decision back then"our plan is failled? ". Plus if idolisation is manipulation do you think Undyne manipulate Monster kid as they idolized her and listen her?You cant assuse Chara of being abusive because Asriel idolized them and say that Undyne is not. That would be reaaaaly hypocritical "5. Liking – People are easily persuaded by other people that they like - wikipedia. And why does he likes them? Because they understands him." Yeah and..?? Isn't manipulation is something we do in full awareness? Isn't it when we force people to like us to just use them for our own advantages? In fact being persuaded just because we like someone is social influence. Thats a basic sociology "That's some mental gymnastics. The truth is that doubting someone naturally makes them disappointed because of that, so you are wrong. Chara revealing their own plan to Asriel naturally expects from him to go along with it. It is proven by Chara commiting suicide and creating strong argument that not only forces Asriel into thinking he cannot disappoint Chara but also keeps him going with the plan and never abandon it even when Asriel neither want to do that nor has good reasons to go along with it. Remember that monsterkind doesn't actually need freeing." Again its a speculation, in fact in the game its not implied that he agreed to the plan at the plan because they feared to disappoint Chara. If he fear to disappoint them, then that mean they fear of Chara's reaction but in the game he shows no fear of Chara and is not intimidated to talk about the failled plan with Chara . "Please point all my words that I used to insult you." Oh sorry I felt its was something okay to insult people here as your friend Halibee cant help but insult me completely freely and without reasons:) "I have said what I wanted to say. I could go on, but it seems pointless due to your overall lack of understanding, deep state of denial and harsh language (I don't want you to get banned). Therefore I will not respond to any of your further posts, unless you calm down and start talking with sense. Later!" Im not the one who confuse social influence and a specific social influence called manipulation(which proove that its you dont understand anything you talk about) . Iam not the one who deliberately ignore the last vhs tape, iam not the one who use headcons to endorces my points,i'am not the one who affirms without any logic and arguments that Chara is evil in every of my post by denying deliberately all the arguments of the opposte party , i'am not the one who use my own definitions of anything and try to force them into others. Its all you. I'am honestly happy to finish to arguing with you because youre in total denial of every of my in game's argument. You know what? I wouldnt prevent to believe Chara is evil, if you are so happy with your opinion then go on, i'am just here to show that having a beloved opinion doesnt mean that its perfect and that it have no contradictions or evidences. @halibee The only reason i mentionned Undyne& cie is to show that doing something wrong doesnt mean youre evil. If anything i claimed that given the game's implications(the evidences of them being the narrator, the family's photo angled towards their bed, Flowey's dialogue in the pacifist end("Seems like everyone is perfectly happy, monsters returned to the surface, peace and harmony will rule take a deep breath theres nothing left to worry about"), their dialogue in the genocide end, the evidences that they genuinely wanted to free the monsters etc.....they are max neutral, and not a some kind of chaotic evil incarnate. But so far you didnt provide the demonstrations i did, only accused me of being stupid of loving to argue etc...just because i dont support your thesis, Sorry genocide Chara's fans either you provide me solid evidences either you stop this discussion now because i dont want to waste my precious time ok